Canadian Court Rules Immigration and Refugee Board Reconsider Asylum Claim for US War Resister
In a victory for US war resisters, Canada’s federal court ruled Friday that the Immigration and Refugee Board should reconsider the asylum claim of conscientious objector and Iraq war veteran Joshua Key. The court ruled that Key had been forced to systematically violate the Geneva Conventions as part of his military service in Iraq and that such misconduct amounts to a legitimate refugee claim. We speak with Key and his lawyer, Jeffry House. [includes rush transcript]
Joshua Key, Iraq war resister. Private in US Army and deployed to Iraq in 2003. Left after six-and-a-half months and filed for conscientious objector status in Canada. He is also the author of a book called The Deserter’s Tale: The Story of an Ordinary Soldier Who Walked Away from the War in Iraq.
Jeffry House, lawyer for Joshua Key.
AMY GOODMAN: In a victory for US war resisters, Canada’s federal court ruled Friday the Immigration and Refugee Board should reconsider the asylum claim of conscientious objector and Iraq war vet Joshua Key. The court ruled Key had been forced to systematically violate the Geneva Conventions as part of his military service in Iraq and that such misconduct amounts to a legitimate refugee claim.
Friday’s ruling came a month after the June 3rd parliamentary motion to allow US war resisters and their family members to stay permanently in Canada. The non-binding motion called on the Canadian government to stop all deportation actions against US war resisters in Canada. A recent poll also found a majority of Canadians, 64 percent, are in favor of granting permanent residence status to conscientious objectors from the United States. As many as 200 US war resisters are currently living in Canada.
We’re joined now by Iraq war resister Joshua Key, on the phone from Saskatchewan, also the author of The Deserter’s Tale: The Story of an Ordinary Soldier Who Walked Away from the War in Iraq. We’re also joined in Toronto by Joshua’s lawyer, Jeffry House, who himself was a Vietnam War resister, and we welcome you, as well, to Democracy Now!
Starting off with Joshua Key, your response to the Canadian court decision?
JOSHUA KEY: It’s very hopeful, and I’m glad to see the process go forward.
AMY GOODMAN: Let me go to Jeffry House. Jeffry, can you explain what the decision is? It’s not final, but explain exactly its significance.
JEFFRY HOUSE: Well, the federal court accepted the findings of the Refugee Board, that Joshua Key had been ordered by his superior officers to systematically violate the Geneva Conventions in the way in which he and his squad was operating in Iraq. The Refugee Board, the lower court, had said, OK, he did violate the Geneva Conventions, but he didn’t commit war crimes, so he’s not a refugee. And the federal court said, no, that’s too narrow of an understanding of the right of a soldier to refuse improper orders. And they said that if you were ordered to violate the Geneva Conventions on a systematic basis, you have a right to refuse, and any punishment that follows from that refusal will make you a convention refugee and protected by international law.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, the decision was to send this case back to a lower court, is that right?
JEFFRY HOUSE: That’s right, because there’s a question here in Canada, which is whether soldiers face punishment or not. We have argued and have given examples of soldiers who have refused to participate in the Iraq war who are in fact punished. But nonetheless, the Federal Court of Appeal here in Canada had said that there’s insufficient evidence that soldiers who refuse to serve will be punished by the government of the United States.
So, in Joshua’s case, if there’s even a hint that he will face punishment if he’s returned to the United States, that would give rise to a refugee claim. However, if he were simply to be discharged and not further used as a soldier, then, according to the court decision, he would not be a convention refugee.
AMY GOODMAN: Joshua Key, can you tell us about your time in Iraq? What did you tell the court about your experience there?
JOSHUA KEY: I told them it was death, destruction and chaos on our behalf. I’ve looked at it as many times in my participation in Iraq in dealing with raids, traffic control points and just civilian killings, that you shouldn’t have to go back—none of us should have to go back and participate in it.
AMY GOODMAN: Did you describe particular experiences you had in Iraq? And if you could speak as loud as you can.
JOSHUA KEY: There was one incident in Ramadi, my second time there, which I was on a QRF mission. It was like a SWAT team for the military for some instance. We were on call for a twenty-four-hour timeframe. We got the call late at night, early in the morning. It was—we were going on the banks of the Euphrates River. We took a sharp right turn, and on the left-hand side I see four decapitated Iraqi bodies. When we parked our armored personnel carrier, I was told to get out and find evidence of a firefight or such, if happened.
There was this American soldier on the right with American soldiers around him, and he was saying they had lost it there. On the left-hand side, there was American soldiers kicking one of the heads around like a soccer ball. So at that time, I got back inside my APC.
The next day, I asked if I could see a written statement or if I could put my—for what I had seen at that location, and I was told it was none of my concern, none of my business. So, that’s when I started questioning things.
AMY GOODMAN: And then, what happened? How long—how much longer were you in Iraq?
JOSHUA KEY: I was there for still another two-and-a-half months before I got a two-week leave period, which I went back to Fort Carson, Colorado. At that time, I called a military lawyer and asked him what was my situation—you know, what could I do? I didn’t want to go back to Iraq. I was already having symptoms of post-traumatic stress—
AMY GOODMAN: Again, Joshua, if you could speak as close to the phone and as loud as you can.
JOSHUA KEY: OK. They said that—the lawyer said I had two choices: either go back to Iraq or go to prison. At that time, me and my wife and my children, we made our—my own decision and that was to go on the run, which we lived in Philadelphia for fourteen months underground, until we made the choice to come across to Canada.
AMY GOODMAN: There is a case of Corey Glass this week, who has a scheduled deportation back to the United States—he’s another war resister—on July 10th. Jeffry House, what happens to him now with this decision?
JEFFRY HOUSE: Well, it’s not clear that this decision is directly related to him, although it might be that he would want to try to reopen his case in the federal court, because as it happens now, there’s a broadened definition of when a person, a soldier, has a right to conscientiously object, not to war in general, but to specific activities of a specific unit that he or she may be in. So, it may be possible for Corey Glass to do that.
At the same time, the Parliament of Canada has called on the government to just let every soldier in these circumstances stay in Canada if they haven’t committed criminal offenses, which no one has. And that, I think, is the overriding reality here, that we have the elected representatives of the people of Canada telling the minority government: make something happen for these people. And it’s just unfortunate that the government is dragging its feet and considering the issue and probably bending over backwards so that the US administration is not offended.
So, essentially, that’s Corey Glass’s position right now. On the one hand, he’s got a kind of invitation from the national Parliament to stay here, and on the other hand, the administrative procedures are at the last point before actual forced departure to the United States.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go to a clip of Corey Glass. Protest actions are expected to take place this Wednesday at Canadian consulates in at least thirteen cities here in the United States. This is Corey Glass’s message to the Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
COREY GLASS: I am Corey Glass, and I’m an Iraq war veteran. I left the US because of my opposition to the Iraq war. If I’m returned to the US, I could face court-martial, jail time or even redeployment to Iraq. I have not been discharged from the United States military, and I’m now currently in the Individual Ready Reserve.
The people of Canada support us. A recent poll shows that Canada wants war resisters to stay. And Parliament voted on June 3rd to allow us to stay in Canada. I’ve lived and worked in Canada for almost two years. I hope you will give full consideration to my case and the will of Canadian people, and please stop my deportation before July 10th.
AMY GOODMAN: That is war resister Corey Glass in Canada, appealing to the Canadian prime minister. Jeffry House, how many war resisters, US war resisters, are there now in Canada, and how does this compare to war resisters in Vietnam, like you?
JEFFRY HOUSE: Well, there’s about 200 war resisters here now, and basically there’s little comparison to the later period of Vietnam, in which there were 50,000 people here, mostly draft dodgers like myself, but also some who were deserters. Probably ten to 15 percent were military deserters from the Vietnam War.
One important thing, though, to remember is that early on in the Vietnam War, there were only a few hundred. And after a long struggle, the doors were forced open here. So, prior to 1969, the numbers increased without much possibility, much clear possibility, that people would be allowed to stay. But by November of 1969, Mr. Trudeau, the prime minister at that time, declared that Canada should be a refuge from militarism. Those were his words. And as a result, the doors opened and people flooded in, people who didn’t want to participate in the Vietnam War.
So, consequently, I look at the numbers as a fluid thing. And it is, to some extent, kept low by the fact that up to this point the government of Canada hasn’t opened the door. But given that Parliament has done so, given that Parliament has made this recommendation to the government, I think that we may soon be in a situation similar to that when Trudeau made his declaration, and many more people may end up here.
AMY GOODMAN: Joshua Key, what would happen if you came back to the United States?
JOSHUA KEY: I don’t know. I’ve been told many different things and many different scenarios. You would only know, when you were sent back there, what would really happen.
AMY GOODMAN: And what has been the response of the Canadian people to you taking refuge in Canada?
JOSHUA KEY: Oh, from as far as the Canadian people are concerned, it’s about 95 percent positive. Where I live, there’s—you know, I don’t hear any public objection. I’m sure some people don’t approve or believe in what I did. But I look at that as they don’t know the circumstances or the case. Most people, after they hear the complete story in detail, then they understand then it’s not—there’s no question.
AMY GOODMAN: Would you want to come back to the United States if you were not punished?
JOSHUA KEY: Well, I would love to come back to my home. You know, that’s where my family lives. That’s where my kids’ grandparents and their family lives. I mean, that will always be home. And I’ve never had an objection with the American people. It’s always been with the government, so I love America.
AMY GOODMAN: Joshua Key, we’ll leave it there, Iraq war resister, a private in the US Army, deployed to Iraq in 2003. Thank you very much, Jeffry House, lawyer for Joshua Key, speaking to us from Toronto.
WoW. why isnt this out there more? will this article and these posts stay on this page only, or can it ever make it anywhere bigger to have an impact?
instead of “bring the troops home” the soldiers themselves should be saying, “fuck this, we’re coming home”.
“For Americans plunged into the heart of this contradiction, the unbridled violence of their own nation points to the suicide of the very species.” Sad, isn’t it.
Good article, James Carroll.
Thanks
“Suicide is always a tragedy, and, whether accompanied by a note, always a message - one that survivors must read. In the case of soldier suicides, we Americans are all their next of kin. Their despair demands our attention. What are they telling us?” “We Americans are all their next of kin.”
The message of this “war” and all the other human conditions with which we are now confronted–fires in CA; flooding in the Heartland; soaring gasoline prices concomitant with the rise of almost every other “necessity” for life here and abroad; earthquakes in China; Typhoons or Cyclones elsewhere; the bursting of the “housing bubble” and associated foreclosures and housing prices declining–is that we may no longer separate ourselves from each other. We are One Human Family, here on this planet to learn and grow. Each of us is individually tasked with that one purpose, whether we believe it or not: to learn and to grow. Isn’t that what childhood is all about? Why would it stop at childhood? Learn about each other and how we may grow together, in peace and harmony. We have been provided with wonderful opportunities to learn about cooperation. Let us pause for a moment and consider what we may each do, individually and as a community, to elevate our consciousness to one of inclusion, not exclusion.
I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation
peace,
st john
What are they telling us?! “Whatyou sow,so shall you reap”…What you do to others,you do to yourself…All spiritual traditions teach that at a profound level,the “other” is an illusion…he/she ia really part of you..when you throw mud at somebody,it may or may not reach the “other” person,but your hands will definitely be muddy…when you immerse youself in violence,death and destruction,that becomes your world…the guilt at your very core is profound and often seeks the ultimate punishment..suicide..
This is the ultimate price a soldier pays…when hundreds of thosands of soldiers are trapped in this negative vicious cycle, we ALL pay by a corrosion of our very deepest spiritual being.
The US Army uses and abuses its cannon fodder. A corrupt entity that entitles some obese CEO in Alexandria a hefty salary while a brain damaged 20-something rots at Walter Reed.
They’re criminals, and they can’t cover up this little suicide problem they’ve created.
See today’s other CD article where management attempts to push blame for the ongoing debacle, in a pathetic attempt to drain away more wealth and resources. Kids, tell the Army forcefully to go f&*k themselves, and never have anything to do with a corrupt, broken, infamous dinosaur. Know your enemy.
There are not enough words in the English language to correctly describe what George Bush has done to the Soldiers on active duty and the Veterans of this war and other conflicts. Having Bush as Commander in Chief is compared to being led, in War, by a renegade Boy Scout. Showing no empathy whatsoever and relying on his favorite phrase of, “They volunteered, didn’t they?” to get his ass out of the frying pan.
A friends son is a fifty year old Sergaent in the reserves. Served in the original iraqi war and two tours in this one. He has 60 days to go for a full retirement but has just been redeployed to Iraq. His odds become worse with each deployment. My friend is livid with rage.
Having served my time in the Military I understand “The Chain of Command” but cannot believe that some high ranking officers haven’t taken these men to task. Meaning Bush and Cheney.
“The war’s catch-22 is that its stated goal is social order, while the American presence itself creates disorder. Our troops know this. They arrive in the war zone with every intention of protecting an innocent population from the enemy, only to discover that the enemy and the population are indistinguishable.”
And, unlike the bad old days, our soldiers have much greater access to the truth, via the Net and cell phones etc. both in theater and in between deployments. Most know about the thousands of lies that sent them into the illegal mess, and the thousands of lies that followed and continue, etc. Most even understand the “war on terror” is total bullshit, and that, since The USA is not officially nor Constitutionally in a state of war with any country on Earth, they actually have no official “Commander in Chief,” just some f**king twisted moron who likes to play one on TV.
How our soldiers haven’t managed to organize and storm the White House and arrest the lying, war profiteering, resource stealing domestic enemies of our Constitution at this point is truly amazing…
http://veterans.house.gov/news/PRArticle.aspx?NewsID=242
18 per day succeed/ 1000 attempts per month
Maybe the GIs finally realized what they have been Neo-Conned into.
“WASHINGTON - The Pentagon said Monday it is charging a Saudi Arabian with “organizing and directing” the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole — and will seek the death penalty.”
As I recall, the Cole was on it’s way to bombard Iraqi civilians to sate Slick’s impeachment rage. Seventeen combatant’s deaths.
As I recall, Haditha had 24 completely innocent civilians, men, women and children murdered by GIs, none of who are held to account.
As I recall, the USS Liberty had 36 innocent American sailors murdered by deliberate Israeli straffing. None of those killers were held to account.
It seems to me that American ‘justice’ lets the killers of innocents walk free but executes opposing soldiers…
It’s no wonder that our young completely betrayed soldiers are fleeing this horror by any means possible.
When you see the Sticker “Support Our Troops”, what does it mean to you? And, what do you think it means to the guy who put it on the bumbper?
The stickers started appearing when the war first started - the second war on Iraq that Bush illegally started. At that point, I was incapable of supporting our troops. I did not support the war. It seemed to me that the people we were fighting were not a blanket nation but small groups of likeminded antagonists.
I believe the Colorado Democratic Senator cast his vote against war. So my participation perhaps ended when he got elected, and then his ilk against washington decided to go for it. I could not personally fund the troops. I find flag waving meaningless. I did not know which families had sent their brave kin to war, and if I did, I personally do not have too many resources to do much fo them.
So after you have participated in an election, what can you do support the troops at the start of a war?
Now, however, I can organize a fund raiser or dinner for injured veterans returning from the war.
The sticker just seemed to say “Hey you war-non-supporter, Support this Fucking War”
Well, that too me, becoems the most unpatriotic bumber sticker EVER.
“Harsh to say, but the American military cares nothing for the individuals who comprise it, only for the mission those individuals, in formation, can accomplish.”
++++++++
This is no different than how the American business world views the individuals who comprise the corporate work force. I have worked in Fortune 500 corporations since 1980. In that nearly 30 year period, I have witnessed first hand, how corporations (non-human persons) have come to treat employees and customers (actual human beings) as if they were virtual persons as well — mere concepts that are valued only to the extent they can cost-effectively accomplish the goals of the corporation. As a result, the whole concept of individual human tragedy is not just devalued, but is deleted from our social and economic policy.
Granted, the impact on our soldiers is more urgent than the impact on vast numbers of employees. However, the basic underlying pathology is the same and rises from the same societal ground — our failure as a culture to remember that all human activity must be done with its human impact in mind.
arcing28 June 30th, 2008 2:12 pm
Its a disgrace. Deploying 5o year old Sergaent’s means we are at the depths. It’s unforgivable, especially from the reserves. Lets send an active duty from Germany, Korea or Japan and let him stay home.
I was going to argue with you about your description of GWB’s leadership ability, but if you really think he’s as good as you said, I won’t. I would have used Cub Scout though.
ZeroPointField June 30th, 2008 2:43 pm
“When you see the Sticker “Support Our Troops”, what does it mean to you?”
It means to me that no matter how you feel about the war, you support and do anything you can for the guys and gals that have to go. Like the 50 year old above. You can hate the government, you can have nothing but contempt for the misuse of these fine soldiers, contempt for GWB, Dick Vader Rumdum and the rest, but you always, always give your support to those serving.
That you never again let the disgraceful treatment of Vets coming back happen again.
For me, that bumper sticker has nothing to do with the war.
Happy 4th of July America!!! And most of you are oblivious to this sickness
Veteran suicide is yet another cost of war that is not factored into official estimates and has not yet made its way into the public consciousness. The American Friends Service Committee recently started a touring exhibit that displays empty white combat boots to represent the Iraq War suicide deaths alongside the already-touring Eyes Wide Open exhibit, which features black boots to represent combat deaths and civilian shoes for Iraqis killed. Regardless of how official tallies classify these victims, whether they died in Iraq or back home, from physical wounds or mental anguish, they are all casualties of the war and should be recognized as such.
Can it possibly be true that after 5 years of war that there are zero Missing in Action?
This has to be a cover up.
Why hasn’t a wartime president ever taken his life? Hint! Hint!
It would save the world so much money and time.
I have wondered the same thing: heav y runner June 30th, 2008 4:01 pm
I wonder what kind of treatment is afforded our MIA, and what position we could legitimately take against their torture and extreme interrogation techniques?
Perhaps “the enemy” does not want to take prisoners as they would just be a burden on their ability to move, and take up valuable resources, i.e. food, water and space. Since the U.S. does not honor the “rights” of “enemy combatants” to a fair and speedy trial, and holds said combatants without charges or trial, killing a prisoner would not be any more dangerous to the captors than treating them under Geneva Conventions. Same penalty, so might as well kill them and save the cost of holding them. “We don’t negotiate with terrorists,” so there is no advantage in holding hostages. Kill them and leave them for their buddies to return in honor.
I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation
peace,
st john
The self-deception of our leaders mirrors not only that of their followers but of all those who refuse to recognize intolerable situation when it occurs.
We’re so lazy. The 56 per cent of us who oppose torture can’t be bothered to convince the 44 per cent who support it of the benightedness of their ways.
The people who supposedly are more enlightened than the Bush administration can’t be bothered with impeachment when the case supporting this action is most compelling in American history.
The soldiers who joined the war couldn’t be bothered to educate themselves about it beforehand or they wouldn’t have signed up.
The people who cast a blind eye on soldier suicide cast a blind eye on soldier indiscriminate shooting and bombing of innocents– in fact, cast a blind eye in all directions about anything.
When one considers intolerable fixes we’ve been in since the founding of our country; e.g., the rockets aimed at us from Cuba in the early sixties, one finds great lack of resolve.
American lack of resolve was the reason Stanley Kubrick used humor in the movie “Dr. Strangelove.” Did it work? I think so.
Could someone write a book or make a film that was similar now? I’m afraid not. Bush is such a satire of himself that no other person could do the job.
American history is parallel to ancient Roman history.
Both go downhill.
St JOHN (1:43), TSS, & ELTAY: Excellent posts. (You leave me nothing to add!)
18 suicides/day, 1000 suicide attempts/month, over 1/4 MN waiting for VA bennies. It is the ultimate tragedy this Murderer in Chief has done this to our sons and daughters.
http://hatingthehill.blogspot.com
Videos that tell you something about these boys no more need…
The unfortunate truth is that potentially suicidal soldiers and veterans dead or alive are no longer useful as cannon fodder. They are therefore just shit to be flushed.
“They are therefore just shit to be flushed.” When all adolescent Americans both male and female , finally figure that out , maybe they won’t be so keen to join up and the American military like the Roman military will cease to exist to which news the world gave three rousing cheers.
One of Hitler’s principles was to keep the ‘home front’ isolated from the war. Keep them happy, working along, and don’t let them see the horror of war nor the true costs.
The last thing the Pentagon and the corporate media are going to do is to highlight what this war really costs. They keep a little list of officially approved ‘combat deaths’ and they keep as many names off that list as possible.
Ronald White June 30th, 2008 9:32 pm
Is there really any body else like this disgraceful excuse for excrement that agrees with it? Nows the time to speak up.
Sat night the local news channel reported the death of an Iraqi vet. It was a motorcycle “accident”. They reported it straight.
Police clocked him at 78 mph, then 130 mph, then he hit a car and was killed. He had just completed his third tour in Iraq.
This will not be listed as a suicide, but, I believe that it was.
in Vietnam the ‘rule’ was for every 1 KIA there would be 3 WIA and 5 psych casualties
it appears that this time it is going to be 1:10:100 how many poor souls will be tortured fOr the rest of their lives?
TOO DAMN MANY
I HAVE NO ANSWERS, ONLY OBSERVATIONS AND DESPAIR
One eye blind to suicide, the other to murder.
We behold the beast.
It can not behold itself.
Siouxrose June 30th, 2008 6:16 pm ..Who gives a crap!
This country won’t be able to atone for what it’s done to Iraq, not to mention all the other horrors the Bush administration has visited upon the world, for 200 years (or name your own time period). We’re karmic toast, our sins and transgressions so grave as to be forgiveable by no human society or culture. Carroll’s point, that “for Americans plunged into the heart of this contradiction, the unbridled violence of their own nation points to the suicide of the very species,” suggests that the Bush insanity we’ve never been able to eradicate has been so profound that we’ve instigated species suicide. How can any people ever hope to get past that, or be forgiven for it, even by anyone’s notion of a supreme being? Bush and Cheney sent this country to hell, and now we’re all the inhabitants, having been paralyzed for 7 tortured years to remove this pestilence from our midst. Send your thank-yous to Pelosi, Reid and all their submissive company.
willybil: You can do much better than that. I’m surprised at you.
Interesting posts by all, and better critique of this serious problem by you CD’ers than you’ll find in newspaper coverage.
With the most corrupt, deceitful, and morally bankrupt administration this nation has ever created (yes, created by we the people) so many of you still ask why our fellow citizens are willing to lay down life, limb, and consciousness for the two spineless derelicts in the White House and the gangsters they serve. MONEY! A guaranteed paycheck with benefits and a terrific pension. Recruitment bonuses, reenlistment bonuses, and of course, job security. No lay-offs, down-sizing, off-shored job loses, pay-cuts, pension reductions, etc. That is the bottom line. All the talk about patriotism and protecting our freedom (from what?) and the standard jingoism which works well in most countries for common working people to do the bidding of the ruling-class would go out the door if the big bucks weren’t there, contrary to popular belief. War is racketeering on a national level. One group of thugs trying to take other another group of thugs goods and territory for self-aggrandizement. When the common people wake up from their self-induced stupor and realize this, wars will cease and we won’t have stories about soldier’s suicides. Until then…
Yes, it is about money, from every angle anyone can imagine, which means it’s about capitalism, since that’s the system under which our money operates. But it’s also about the deliberately engineered ignorance, in our school system and the corporate media, to always have a plentiful supply of underclass, kept forever ignorant of how this corrupt system really works, to field an army that fights these illegal “wars.” Most of the soldiers we “support” with our bumper sticker jingoism are from the very poorest economic class, so the financial payoff dangled before them that peaceman correctly emphasizes as the reason they enlist in the first place, is central to the devious plan behind all the murder and mayhem the Bush thugs contrived to get their war for oil privateers. Keep millions of people dirt poor and barely literate, if at all, and you’ll always have a “standing army” ready to die for your power and wealth. The poor and illiterate, or semi-literate, are easily brainwashed into believing they’re doing something patriotic when all they’re actually doing is killing people equally or more disenfranchised than they are. And destroying their country. All to benefit a small cabal of American psychos.
willybill July 1st, 2008 9:30 am
Siouxrose June 30th, 2008 6:16 pm ..Who gives a crap!
I do.
peaceman July 1st, 2008 10:38 am
You are partially correct. Many join for the money and benefits, others as a way out of where they are. Others join because of the patriotism you don’t think much of. As some of the others see more of the world, they understand more about patriotism and freedom, what we have. Some don’t.
Against what? Remove that protection and you would soon find out. What we have is not a right or a free gift. But I respect your different opinion and just ask that you respect those that got the right to express it for you.
I am very glad to learn there aren’t a lot of callow cowards on CD.
Pax
“As America has steadily averted its gaze from the actualities of its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, so, too, has the nation refused to look at what is happening to those it sends to fight.”
nobody is ’sent to fight’! the gi’s volunteer and look forward to killing some haji’s. the gi’s are murderous thugs who can’t wait to pull the triger. true, a very tiny percentage of gi’s become posessed of a rudimentary moral conscience which allows them to gets some idea of the death and pain and destruction they have cause other humans in iraq. but by the time the moral conscience comes around it is too late; there is no moral justification for the death of even one iraqi by an american, NO MORAL JUSTIFICATION. only the psychopath can live with what they have done in iraq and else where. most gi’s are happy to kill women and kids.
Some people are very threatened by the holistic nature of spirituality for it transcends all the linguistic rabblerousing about enemies, and who is right/wrong. It’s about ultimate inclusion.
EPHRAIM: Excellent post.
Thomas MORE: Thank you for your chivalry.
Ironically, just yesterday there was a local news report of a Special Forces soldier who is now blind, but is as gung-ho as ever and is remaining on active duty.
I admit that I couldn’t be bothered reading the details; the general thrust of the story seemed to be that his attitude was admirable– he was making win-win lemonade out of being blinded, or something like that.
I have run across references to a New, Improved psychology which encourages injured and disabled military personnel to return to active duty with their units. It makes a ghastly kind of “sense”, in a superficial way– the idea is that wounded soldiers are prone to suffer from psychological disorders compounded by things like survivors’ guilt, feeling alienated and depressed by abruptly being removed from one’s “buddies” in the field, an absence of meaningful structure and goals, etc.
Screwing a few new parts on and returning the soldier to combat, on the other hand, gives the gung-ho soldier something to look forward to! That’s really what they’re saying, even though it sounds more plausible when it’s translated into psychobabble.
Good luck to the blind dude, of course, and I hope he doesn’t trip over his shoelaces and break his neck or anything.
Talk about the blind leading the blind!
Ephraim: Right on! You said it well.
Thomas More: With due respect for your opinions and belief systems, I must ask you when you make a statement assuming you know anything about my beliefs. You say, “Others join because of the patriotism you don’t think much of.” What do you know about my “patriotism” Mr. More? I would describe my patriotism more like the one described by Howard Zinn on CD last year. Just so you know. And I don’t have to tell you a thing, but I did, so you understand my position, which is worth nothing to anybody except myself.
“Against what? Remove that protection and you would soon find out.” I beg to differ, Mr. More. There is a big difference between protecting one’s country from foreign invaders and invading foreign nations to kill, plunder, and dominate. This, by the way, is the point I want to make. If I follow your logic on patriotism, then every kami-kazi pilot dedicating their lives for the supreme patriotic act should have been awarded Japan’s equivalent of the Medal of Honor. They loved their country! The Italians wised up early on in WW2 and turned on Mussolini, and the generals captured him, imprisoning I’l Duce’ on a mountain top jail. The brave and daring German paratroopers who rescued him shoul have been given the Iron Cross for bravery on the field of battle. They were patriots who loved their country and risked their lives for the Fuher’s buddy. I can continue going back in time but I hope my point is understood.
We can rationalize and defend our positions on anything we do or say, but it doesn’t make it right, Thomas. And I believe your intentions are noble. But a callow coward? You don’t know me, sir. If you want to call anyone a coward, start with Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, et al.
peaceman July 1st, 2008 2:10 pm
Oops! As some here can tell you I sometimes stumble over my own tongue.
” but I did, so you understand my position, which is worth nothing to anybody except myself.”
I reread the context of the paragraph I got that from ““Others join because of the patriotism you don’t think much of.” and you are exactly correct. I owe you my humble apology for that one.
Your point is correct about defending ones country rather than attacking another unprovoked.
“Against what? Remove that protection and you would soon find out.” I beg to differ, Mr. More. There is a big difference between protecting one’s country from foreign invaders and invading foreign nations”
My point was that if you removed the military we would be in big trouble quite quickly. A very valid point. Problem is thats not what you said.
The whole problem here seems to be I either transposed somebody else’s post with your name or I may just be stupid. Tailcap, Frank, Siouxrose and some others can assure you I sometimes am. Lets take stupid. I truly don’t have another explanation.
Two other things……
“And I don’t have to tell you a thing, but I did, so you understand my position, which is worth nothing to anybody except myself.”
This is just not true. I disagree with many here and they disagree right back, but their positions are valued as much by me as them. And thats true of most people here I think. So at last, this time I’m right on something here! Your position and thoughts are worth quite a lot.
“But a callow coward? You don’t know me, sir. If you want to call anyone a coward, start with Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, et al.”
Mia Culpa. That wasn’t meant for you at all. I should have drawn a line or something, I was referring to two posts by Ronald White in which he said all our soldiers were shit and he hoped they would die and one above that said “They are therefore just shit to be flushed.”
I posted…
“Is there really any body else like this disgraceful excuse for excrement that agrees with it? Nows the time to speak up.”
No one else agreed with him and thats where the
“I am very glad to learn there aren’t a lot of callow cowards on CD.”
Certainly not meant for you. I was just trying to say that I was glad this was a lone little childish coward.
I am distressed to think I caused you to think someone thought that and the someone was me. I humbly beg your pardon and apologize every way you can think of.
But one last thing sir,
“If you want to call anyone a coward, start with Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, et al.”
I will not be making any mistake here and can happily say without a doubt in my mind that all you mentioned are cowards, self proven in two different decades.
Pax
Thomas More: Now it is my turn to apologize to you for a misunderstanding on my part. I hadn’t read the other article from Tom Dispatch until minutes before I posted my comments. I read your comments on CD and you need not apologize to anyone. You very well know the score. Thomas, the reason I defended Ronald White is, (and I could be wrong) his utmost frustration by the willingness of our fellow citizens to kill, maim, torture, rape, kidnap, and loot others around the world for the Bush/Cheney band of international racketeers. I see Ron’s anger more as a plea for unity to stop the violence rather than a death wish on our military forces and how they are being used.
I make more mistakes than I care to admit to, so don’t feel bad at all. You said nothing wrong, sir. If anything, you are quite a gentleman, and this is the correct way to settle disputes. Not with fisticuffs, machine guns or atomic bombs. (we really had no dispute with each other)
So, Mr. More, I thank you for an intelligent reply and I am sorry for any distress I caused you because I didn’t read between the lines.
Pax, likewise